Stop Managing Tasks, Start Leading People

Ed Ballina
Hey, welcome to the Manufacturing Meetup Podcast. You know where we are, if you’ve seen us before, this is a show where we kick back, right? We relax in our downtime and we talk about the other downtime that we just had in our plans. So we look for sharing points around efficiency and what it’s like to be on the shop floor.
So hi, I’m Ed Ballina, back with another episode.

Alvaro Cuba
Hello guys, Alvaro Cuba here. How are you, amigo?

Ed Ballina
Having a great time.  Had a little bit of an unexpected trip ⁓ and I had to work really hard to get a hat. Because I did bring one, but it’s sitting in my suitcase in the hotel. I went searching and here we are. It’s actually really cool. ⁓ That’s a dead giveaway. I’m actually at a coffee plant, Westrock Coffee in Arkansas. 

Alvaro Cuba
You got a hard hat this time.

Ed Ballina
I’d say maybe about 30 miles outside of Little Rock. But you can see I’ve got some really cool stuff behind me. So  that’s why I’m here and that’s my hat. Alvaro, your hat looks damaged. Something wrong? Yes. Always keep the noggin. The noggin’s got to be protected.

Alvaro Cuba
Yeah. And an excellent example on safety. Thumbs up, amigo. Yeah, great on safety. Always.

I probably, by the way, I probably need someone like yours because look what happened with mine. Yeah, that’s what happens when you go out fishing in Florida, you know, the alligators or the sharks want their pound of flesh.

Ed Ballina
Amigo, they almost had to take a pound of your flesh out of that sucker. Whoa!

Alvaro Cuba
I need you here so you can guide me to the  perils of the fishing work.

Ed Ballina
Hey, you know where I go fishing. It’s called Canada and they don’t make them that big in Canada. I don’t have to worry about getting, you know, maybe a finger getting bitten off, but not the head.

Alvaro Cuba
Hahaha Now I understand why you went north and not south. Okay.

Ed Ballina
Exactly. They make them big in the South. Great. In our last episode, we had Glenn Yopis as our guest. He shared his innovation mentality framework. Really great conversation. I think we got an hour and half’s worth of content and our poor producer is trying to figure out what to do with that. But today we’re going to see that concept right through a new guest that we have and I’d like to welcome Andres Oviedo. Alvaro knows him better than I do. I’ve met him 15 minutes ago. So he has a lot more information. Alvaro.

Alvaro Cuba
I’ll introduce Andres in  a minute, but just to make the connection, I think it’s very powerful after we talked to Glenn to bring Andres because he personifies the passionate pursuit that we were talking yesterday. And he converted it into a real operational excellence. And he speaks multiple languages, not only Spanish and English, but language from the shop floor, and C-suite and beyond. So it’s going to be a great follow after  Glenn. But before we start, please subscribe, check the button below, subscribe so you don’t miss the conversations and we can always have you in the show.

Ed Ballina
Excellent, let’s do it!

Alvaro Cuba
So guys,  we want to welcome Andres Oviedo as we were saying in the introduction. He’s our guest of honor today and we are very, very happy to have Andres. He has a lot of experience. He started in Venezuela, his home country and Philip Morris, Kraft, then Mondelēz. Actually we met in Mondelēz when he was in Columbia and  we did a great job. He started manufacturing first, all the different jobs in manufacturing. And then he started managing end-to-end supply chains from procurement, manufacturing, customer service, logistics, did for category for an area. And then he came to the U.S.  to do supply chain excellence. And after that, he went to Kraft Heinz  to manage North America for a category. And he’s now in Barry Callebaut. He’s the SVP of Operations in Americas. He managed 17 plants in all Americas and it’s for sure making a big difference. So welcome, Andres. It’s great to see you again and we’ll be remembering our times together in South America and then in North America. Welcome.

Andres Oviedo
Thank you, Alvaro and Ed for inviting me. Wow, what a such an honor is to be here. And yes, I guess sometimes we walk and we run in our careers, but we never stop a little bit to understand what are we doing and what legacy have we built, right? So it is a perfect time in this,  you know, Latin or yeah, this Hispanic Heritage Month to honor and to understand what we are doing and how we contribute not only to the US, but in general to the world that in everything that we do in operations. So thank you for having me and I am so thrilled and excited for this minutes to come.

Ed Ballina
This is terrific. Alvaro shared your background with us. The success that you’ve had in lots of different environments, right? Because we know in some cases you can drive improvements and deliver results in a particular environment. And then when you’re lifted from that to another, it’s not always so easy to lift and shift. But you’ve managed to do that your whole career in different countries and different businesses, rising to leadership levels. And that’s fantastic. It shows an adaptability and resiliency.  So as you think about your career, what do you think is one of the competitive advantages that growing up in the Hispanic culture brings to American manufacturing. And by the way, those of you that are watching this, yes, this is in celebration of Hispanic Heritage Month, but we purposely have chosen individuals that can provide insights regardless of what your ethnicity or background is. The nuggets you’re to hear from Andres, just like the ones you had from Glenn, the last podcast, are equally applicable. This is not just for Latinos.

We just happen to be celebrating it this month. With that,  what do you think, Andres?

Andres Oviedo
Now, before answering the question, I guess this is absolutely a very valid point. I mean, this is not about ethnicity. I mean, this is all about how can we support each other as a supply chain community on the things and learnings that can build and help others to succeed and to be better. So absolutely spot on Ed. So which competitive absolutely, absolutely.

Alvaro Cuba
It’s about experience, actually. It’s about how you get the experience, how you share the experience. And the more broad your experience and more inclusive, the better for everyone.

Andres Oviedo
Absolutely, Alvaro. So back to the question, Ed, this is a very good one. And I guess there’s four things that I recall that are very important, given my background that I want to share with the audience. I guess the first has to do with resilience and adaptability. Just to give you a number, I personally have moved more than, I mean, 16 times, 16 times in my whole life.

And that develops a muscle of adaptability, of understanding the uncertainty, but having a clear role and goal where you’re pursuing and what you have to do. So this for me is something that in my, you know, in my culture is important and, you know, keep the resilience as a one critical muscle and element of your skills is important. The second thing that is for me a competitive advantage is the creativity in problem solving. There’s never, and also especially in supply chain, we are always trending to have on a standard, a checklist. We were joking initially about the CIL and  it’s absolutely, and don’t get me wrong. I mean, those are super needed and it’s part of the rigor that we need to do. But in moments of crisis and moment of adaptability, you know, the script, you need to get the perspective on following the script and having this creativity to understand how you solve problems. And this way and drive is absolutely something that make a huge difference. Third, but not least, is people first leadership. As a Latino, we are so people and the bonding for us makes a huge difference. The way we do the work is absolutely important. And, you know, the way you build trust, the way you build a team, the way you engage our people is something that is really critical and make a huge difference. And the fourth is you aim for the best. There’s an ambition for excellence. There’s a quest to be the best. And this resonates with  in every single culture. You want to be that you want to be the number one.

Ed Ballina
Absolutely.

Andres Oviedo
And we as Latinos, and in my background, it’s something that is so, so embedded in my DNA. And I guess it’s worth to share. This is definitely a competitive advantage.

Ed Ballina
That’s us.

Alvaro Cuba
And as you said, it’s operational excellence, which starts with people and all the four things that you mentioned, and then how you apply it to the processes and then how you apply it to the business. And you ended up with the end-to-end excellence that you are talking.

Andres Oviedo
Yeah, absolutely.

Ed Ballina
And the great results to match when you put all that together.

Andres Oviedo
Yeah, absolutely.

Alvaro Cuba
Andres,  on a related topic, we were talking about the different languages and not Spanish or English, but you started your career in the plants and then you moved in different roles. Now you are executive. So now you…speak corporate language, you speak plant language, you speak shop floor language. So how that ability that you get and you can go up and down and speak the different languages and most probably translate,  how do you apply in the American plants, give us a couple of examples.

Andres Oviedo
Yeah, for sure. I guess this is a very important element because that’s the role that we play as a leader, right? You know, how we translate the vision, the strategy, the macro expectations and aspirations of the corporations where we work into the most simple level that everybody can buy and make 100 % of the organization pursuing exactly the same thing. So back to the question, there’s three, yeah, I would say, examples, but I will link with, you know, specific elements in this translation  of the corporate  to the, to the technical  language that for me are very critical. The first has to do with, you know, how you, how we bring the strategy into execution. So yes, I mean, we have a system we call in some independent on the organization, we call it DDS, we call it DMS, which is the way we translate in into the management system to the daily platform where the whole operators and folks in the lines understand what we are pursuing. So having this translation into the most simple way that the shop floor can understand and relate to the macro strategy is one critical element of this translation. The second element, I guess, is, as I mentioned, people inspire a lot in this journey.

So the way you build trust and engagement is really important. So when we say walk the talk, it’s really important. You cannot ask for something when you are not honoring whatever you said. And Ed, you mentioned initially about the helmet you have and safety. I always said safety first, quality always. You cannot ask your folks in operations to own and be 100 % committed with safety when you don’t walk the talk, when you don’t follow the instruction, when you don’t use the, or follow the procedures when you’re texting while you’re walking in a plant, right? You know, this is a type of thing that is not about, you know, major things, but that’s important. And the last is, of course, how you drive, you know, performance while you’re in a crisis. COVID teach a lot into this question, how you handle the uncertainty, the challenges into a way that companies understand. Put people first, business follow, but keeping the procedures in this translation of languages. But yeah, for me, those are the three good examples that I guess can describe what you guys ask.

Alvaro Cuba
Great, great examples. We talk with Ed, exactly that. Actually, he loves the safety and the quality, and always related, always both hand in hand, one for people, one for products, and for the entire business. Andres, moving a little bit into a transformation.

We talked with Glenn last week about entrepreneurial spirit. And I have, I work with several startups and it’s clear in startup, you know the risk taking, the innovation, the visionary, the problem solving and all that. But what we were talking last week is how important is to keep that fresh approach into organizations. And the bigger the organization, probably the more challenged to do it.

I’m sure you are doing it in your transformations in the US manufacturing, the different operations that you have managed towards zero loss and value creation. So what innovative approach have you found  that you learned probably in Latin America and you have found useful in North America?

Andres Oviedo
Very good. I guess the first approach that I guess, and I love this entrepreneurial spirit, put it in action, that this is something that we as Latin heritage, we bring a lot is dare to try. We take risk. Assume risk. It is okay when for sure you’re not exposing yourself to any harm or the business, but to try, to try different things. And it’s okay to fail. Of course, the organization needs to be, you know, depending on the organization, you need to align, but you know, try to do things different. So for me, this is a first thing that you need to put in action if you really want to have different results, especially under a transformation. The other piece has to do with resourcefulness under crisis. We often in Latin America, deliver results with very limited resources. And resources means every time, all of the time, most of the time, you do more with less. And this is something that we’re teaching. And again, back to the culture, how can we spread this into different culture? This is okay. And it’s okay when you try to do something that probably are not prescriptive as they are, but you are sure that you’re tackling that element that will make a difference. Second, absolutely people first engage, you know, under transformation, the most important thing is to have the people clear on the journey. Be open, open the door for your people. Stay close to them because the transformation is nothing but making people change things on the very short period of time, but absolutely with a purpose and understanding and embracing the change. So for me, those are critical elements that we need to put in consideration.

Alvaro Cuba
Yeah, we experienced all of them together in our different challenges.

Ed Ballina
No, no, there’s definitely a “do more with less” type of mentality and that also spurs creativity, right? We were talking with Glenn last week about I mean, once I got to a point where I had a little more confidence in myself, I took the approach of beg for forgiveness instead of asking for permission. And that could be a little risky. OK, but that’s hey, the fruit, the fruit is not on the ground. You got to go up the tree to get the fruit.

Ed Ballina
Anyway, so thinking about that, you know, we’re talking about cultures  and,  you know, if you spent, you know, the formative years, I’ll say, of your life in Latin America, growing up as a leader, as a manager, and now you’re trying to translate that success to the U.S.,  you know, what were some of the bigger cultural adjustments you had to make in going from like a Latin American predominant workforce to the U.S. Although in some of our plants, the demographics don’t look much more than some of our native countries. So, what were some of those changes?

Andres Oviedo
Yeah. I will probably summarize in one, and for me, this is absolutely something that keeps in my mind always. In Latin America, people naturally follow leaders more personally. I mean, you build trust, and that trust is built through relationship. In the US, North America, the core expect to understand or understand the “why” the reasons behind it. What is in it for me before they’re fully committed? So what did I do? Is, you know, focus always in communicating the big picture. Why are we doing this? Where are we going? What is that destination that we are embracing? And once people are fully clear on that, you see the spark coming and the change there. It happens.

Ed Ballina
It happens. It’s a beautiful point. It’s a beautiful point you made because I do feel, I’ll just speak for myself, culturally, you know, I was raised to like, you respect authority, right? You know, el jefe, the boss, right?  But I think deep down inside,  all human beings are the same. We quest for knowledge to give our work purpose.

So whether you’re in Latin America, you tend to be a little bit more trained to, you gotta do what he says because he’s the boss. In the US, you get challenged, right? But I think deep down inside as individuals, we all wanna understand that, right? We all wanna know why you’re asking me to do something, especially if it doesn’t make sense to me at start. So that’s a really key point you bring up. So, Alvaro?

Alvaro Cuba
Yeah, and it’s a huge difference when you go process first and then you try to bring the people versus when you go people first and then everything happens. Like Andres was saying, the magic happens. And TPM and everything we learned from the Japanese and all our practices were exactly that. So the three first pillars were always organization, culture, people, education and training. Those were the foundation. Then you come to the different pillars in the organization. Amazing point, Andres. You talked  several times now about crisis. And obviously when we come from Latin America, there is always demand volatility or huge demand or zero demand.

Andres Oviedo
in Venezuela, I guess it’s a PhD of Crisis. ⁓

Alvaro Cuba
Yeah, that’s true.

It’s PhD in Crisis, but every single country in Latin America, every single one, inflation go to the roof, then go zero. Political upheaval all the time, reorganizations, not only the company, the business, the government, everyone is always so. We really working in Latin America, we get PhD in…crisis management. And we all do that, but COVID time, and you also mentioned this, you were in North America already. And the other big changes in North America, how are you able to translate that learning that we have all ingrained into some concrete things to do in North America.

Andres Oviedo
Yeah, I guess three takeaways and things that I keep into my day to day, they say elements of management, my organizations. The first is be resilient under pressure. Never give up. I mean, be resilient. Second, be proactive solving issues and problems. Anticipate them. Smell, smell when something is coming. And third, put your people always first. You want to handle a crisis without considering your people, you’re out. So, absolutely. So resilience under pressure.

Alvaro Cuba
And not only bringing your people, but empowering them. Because when you were saying smell and all things, they are the first. They are in the day to day. So using them, empowering them for them to manage this and this connected to the point that we were talking before about the entrepreneurial sphere.

Andres Oviedo
Of course! Of course, of course, of course. Yeah. 100%.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, this is what I was going after, you know, making quickly the three points, because for me, it’s very important to keep them clear. So when you talk about resilience under pressure is, you know, understand the crisis, that crisis is a crisis. You need to get a little bit out of that crisis, otherwise decisions will be bad and make the proper channels establish the right, as they say, elements and deliverables of that crisis. I mean what I meant about proactive problem, you know, solving the problems is, and you mentioned, you know, it’s not, it’s something that in essence we, we learn in TPM, you said Alvaro or IWS, you know, it’s detect the signs  of when the things are starting  to fail, and, you know, make actions, make that and correct, because it’s better to catch things  before they become a crisis. And when we talk about people, first is yes, I mean, empower open channels, let them to rise the concerns and develop as they come the solutions in the follow up while you handle the crisis.

Ed Ballina
So, you know, as you, I think we’ve all experienced this in our career, as your scope of responsibility grows, right, and now you’re in charge of not just one plant, not just five or six plans, but you’re in charge of a continent, you’re responsible. 15, 20 plans that you have to get to, right?

How do you stay connected? Get that pulse of the shop floor that is so important to understanding the impact.

Andres Oviedo
Yeah, I guess that, mean, if you ask me which role had been for me, the role that I enjoyed the most and that I really love was the plant manager role in every single aspect. ⁓ my God. And that’s exactly where you said, ⁓ I see easily or I mean, always with absolutely amount of effort, but you were able to see transformation. You were able to see everything.

When you, when you were coming from that experience, the best way to stay connected, whatever role you get as you continue going up is, you know, plant specific. You have a schedule of, you know, going to the plants, smelling the place. How is it going? Connect, connecting with people, you know, do launches, you know, meeting with talents, down holds, you know, stay as much as you can, not only walking, but taking the most advantage of you going there to inspire. Remember the five E’s of leadership. One of them is to really envision, enabling and energize, right? So that’s your role when you go to the plant. So this is for me, one critical element, stay present, have regular plant visits. Of course, develop this cross-level communication, right? I mean, understand when they talk and speak, pay attention, be present when you are in the plant. So with doing that, the people start engaging and having more trust.

Also, you need to develop these structured touch points, right? I mean, when do you talk to the plans? You know, it’s every month, it’s every 15 days, it’s every week. I mean, it depends on how critical things are. You need to stay and develop interventions. And also, I guess, in connected, Albert, with the point of empowerment, the last but not least, you know, you need to empower local leaders as well. They represent you, they represent the organization.

And having the best talent and the best leader that actually can show and shine and use you, because in the end we are servant leaders, we are just there for them and they can make the magic happen. So absolutely, that’s the way I can, you know, I have been able to manage being remote kilometers and, you know, hundreds and thousands of miles away from the plants. And I still they remember you every time they can and actually they deliver what they have to. So yeah, that’s the way I managed.

Ed Ballina
That’s very cool.  Again, the whole people discussion  weaves through all this. ⁓ I would have every time ⁓ I’d come into a facility and I’d try to be out there pretty often, I’d schedule an hour for a round table. And then of course, the dreaded plant tour. But part of the plant tour for me was not just about auditing against standards, but it was also about going and shaking ⁓ Joe’s hand who remembers me because I’m the…he’s a filler operator and you know what? Those connections are, first of all, they recharge my battery, right? Even today as a consultant coming in, when I walk into a plant and somebody said, Ed Ballina, how are you? I’m like, oh my God, they remembered me, right? It’s like home week at school. I try, I try. But no, it’s.

Andres Oviedo
And if you want a KPI, that’s maybe a one KPI that you need to try once you live it. Yeah, to help people remember you. That’s important.

Ed Ballina

I mean, can be… Yeah, yeah, it’s important. ⁓ So hey, we’ve covered a lot of ground ⁓ and we always try to kind of give our listeners a couple of bullets or nuggets that they can take away. So if our listeners just take away two or three key lessons from your journey, what should they be? And I’m gonna guess, and they’re gonna have people written all over it, but I’m not gonna lead the witness. You tell us.

Andres Oviedo
Yeah. Of course people will be there, but I guess before getting into people, you need to start with you, right? I mean, you need to, I guess, one of the most important things I have learned so far is that it is important that you have a purpose and a clear direction. Where do you want to go?

As I mentor young talents, I face this as a really concerning element. People, sometimes they don’t know where they are going. And they’re just instructed to say and do. And this is not okay. You need to know where do you wanna go? What makes you happy? What’s the place where you should, I mean, where to see yourself in the future?

And I don’t want to ask about the timeframe because when they ask 10 years, people clap like a, whoa, no, cannot. 10 years is like a lot. But yeah, I it’s, I don’t know, maybe, you know, you need to understand that and define the routes that are important for that. So this is one. Have a clear purpose and direction. Where do you want to go? Of course, second, people. Lead with people first. Build the trust. Trust is so important. People will follow. Will follow as long as they trust you, as long as you walk the talk, as long as you develop that connection and bonding with your teams and have them 100 % committed. And of course, and this is connected with the previous section of the interview, I guess. Embrace resilience and excellence. You cannot be OK accepting the things as they are today and the complacency as OK or running in substandards. You deserve more than that. Much more than that. So don’t be OK with the mediocracy. You deserve better. You can be the best in whatever job role you do. That’s it for me, I think.

Ed Ballina
I love it. Very, very inspirational. Very inspirational.

Alvaro Cuba
Excellence again.

Yeah. Excellence again. I always remember when I just came into, it was my first job, the CEO of the company at that time, was Philip Morris, Mr. Bible. I don’t know if you remember him Andres, or not. He was saying, I have only two things to do. And one exception. One is the vision, set the vision. I need to be able to set the vision. Second, I need to rally the troops. I need to be everywhere and inspire the people. And that not to do is once I do that, I need to get out of the way to make them successful. Once you have clarity, and I love what you said about even starting with you personally.

If I have clarity of purpose where I’m going and then I bring the people with me, everything will be solved in the journey. Yes, you are unstoppable. Exactly like that. Andres, as we wrap up, Hispanic professionals in the US, a lot as successful as you, several others struggle and several go back. So if you would give them a piece of advice, a message to advance in North American manufacturing, what would you say to them? Would be the main thing to focus?

Andres Oviedo
Very good, absolutely. I guess that I will start this answer saying, you know, stay true to your roots.

Embrace every opportunity with your unique perspective. Diversity is one of the most critical assets that companies can have, and you are part of that. Embrace your point of view. Your perspective is OK. And be proud of who you are. That’s the first thing I can say. Of course, bring your full self towards.

You need to be present. You need to be, give the best. I mean, there’s back to the previous answer that I gave, you know, you cannot come here, you know, just limiting yourself to do whatever. You need to be the first coming to work. You need to be the last leaving to work. You need to be the first that is, hey, we have, we have overtime. Can I sign in? I mean, do your best, bring additional ideas, you know, enjoy what you do because this is what we are. We are Latino. So for sure.

Come here and enjoy and live this in the best way you can. Of course, yeah, yeah, in some cases, we need to take care of that and don’t think about it. But the point is that you make a huge difference. So for sure, bring your full self at work. This is one thing.

Alvaro Cuba
And bring your music, bring your music.

Ed Ballina
And the food!

Andres Oviedo
And also lead with purpose. Invest in your team, invest in your network, invest in mentors, informal mentors and be this relationship across every level.

I remember Alvaro, even I was, you know, Alvaro was not continue being my direct manager. I continue talking to Alvaro for advice. I mean, if you never know when somebody can help you and somebody can, you know, bring that voice and wisdom that you need to continue pursuing the excellence in the career that you have or want to pursue. So again, those for me are the difficult things that, you know, you need to embrace. And of course, will make a huge difference in you. Don’t forget who you are.

Embrace that and be proud.

Ed Ballina
I love Don’t forget who you are and reach back to help those like you were helped along the way, right? I mean, some real strong tenets. So here we’re gonna wrap this up with one last question. That is, as you look at American manufacturing today, right? If you could change one mindset about leadership, what would that be?

Andres Oviedo
Yeah. We need to move from managing tasks to leading people. As simple as that. We need to stop the checklist with instead of investing 100 % of your time, engaging the people to make a difference, to leave a legacy, to understand what the truth is and entice them to be and become the best version of themselves.

For me, this is actually something that we need to change and we urge to do that.

Ed Ballina
Yeah, all comes back to people, right? And engaging with people the right way. Yeah, and taking a chance on folks, right? Yeah, I’m gonna help you. I’m gonna help you.

Andres Oviedo
Ed, wonderful. Yeah, Ed, that’s important. That’s so important. Sometimes there’s biases in the process, in the corporate processes that we have. And once you connect with people, you probably see a different way to do and give them chances, opportunity, probably is in the wrong place. You know, I don’t know, but took the time to connect with people.

Alvaro Cuba
And every time, and every time you connect with people, you help and you are helped. Because if you are listening, they are telling you also things, small nuggets, that if you take them, you learn and you grow.

Ed Ballina (38:25)

I, one little nugget on this one, there was one plant that I used to go to, I always arrived at the same time and I went to the same place to eat. Some of the, and it was almost like a beer joint, Alvaro, like MMU, the way we talk about, right? Well, they started figuring out that that would show up and when my plant visits, they’d go there and we would BS till 10 o’clock at night. The next morning I’d walk in and the plant manager and I were very tight, so it’d be like. “Hey, I heard you blew a batch of product yesterday.” He’s like, how’d you find that out? I’ll say, hey, I got my sources. I can’t reveal them all, but you know, at the bar, two shots of tequila, man. And they were telling me everything that was going in that plant. Hey, I got to thank you, Andres. This has been a terrific experience, you know, learning about, you know, your travels, your success,  wish you tons more, which I know you’ll definitely continue. And I just want to thank you for sharing your perspective with us. It was terrific.

Andres Oviedo
Amen. Thank you.

Alvaro Cuba
Thank you so much, Andres. It has been a great episode and very practical, very direct on concrete things that different cultures can bring into the US and bring excellence. Thank you so much for being with us.

Andres Oviedo
For sure. Thank you guys for having me. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Alvaro Cuba
Well, friends, that’s the wrap up for today’s episode. So thank you very much for joining this meetup. If you are watching us, please follow, subscribe, leave us a comment, but more important, tell your pals. And let’s grow up this meetup together and give us your asks, your questions, your comments, always helpful. Ed.

Ed Ballina
Absolutely. So if you like to keep the conversation going, and I guess you do because you haven’t booted us off the air yet, so we must be doing something right. Not yet, but hey, it’s always what have you done for me lately, right? It was a gentleman that I knew that said, there’s nothing as silent as yesterday’s applause. Show me what you do today. So anyway, email us back at mmu@augury.com. We also have links to Glenn’s work in the show notes of this episode as well as  other notes. By the way, we have had people starting to ask us questions on our podcast, right? Please do that because we’ll get a lot of interest out of that and maybe we’ll even send you an MMU hat. So stay tuned and see you next time.

Alvaro Cuba
See you guys, bye.